Ramsey Russell Worldwide: A Conversation With Brandon Cerecke of Boss Shotshells

Rocky Leflore: Welcome to The End of the Line podcast, I’m Rocky Leflore in the Duck South Studios back after a few days gone. Joining me on the other end of the line double R. Ramsey Russell.

Ramsey Russell: Rocky, how are you, sir?

Rocky Leflore: I appreciate you taking over the controls while I was out attending to state fair and 4-h and big school reunion that I had to put on but I appreciate that again.

Ramsey Russell: It’s my pleasure. It ain’t no big deal, it’s like being on the phone with Ira, it doesn’t take any effort man. He got a story and godly what a great guy to talk to, that was a pleasure. Always a pleasure to get on the phone with him. But anyway, I’m back in between trips and Canada was awesome and I can’t wait for a few weeks, you’ll hear about – I’ve been to Ontario 4 or 5 times good Canada goose hunting but I’ve never been to this part of Ontario. Somebody asked me last week in an inbox, hey, you travel all over the world I mean, how often do you see something like that? I said, I’m 53 years old and I have never seen anything like that. Ever seen anything like that.

Rocky Leflore: But what made it so different?

“Rocky, one day the feed we were going in to hunt number between 5000 and 7000 Big Canada Geese and we went in one day, but all 3 mornings were spectacular. But one good morning, I’ll never forget.”

Ramsey Russell: Because you see a lot of Canada geese anywhere in Canada you go but you got the big and the littles and the mediums, these were big, I believe their interior but they’re big and the density and the number of them was astounding. And it was like, I was talking to a buddy of mine probably, Ontario is kind of long and skinny runs east to west, I was talking to somebody probably 4 hour drive time, 5 hour drive time to the west and he was talking about how different was in the Ottawa Valley versus there because you know where he is over on the western side, they’ll set up all the time on 100 to a 100 bird feed. And these guys won’t even slow down for twice that many, 10 times that many. Rocky, one day the feed we were going in to hunt number between 5000 and 7000 Big Canada Geese and we went in one day, but all 3 mornings were spectacular. But one good morning, I’ll never forget. If I live to be a million years old, I will never forget that morning, when so many birds coming in and he explained as many birds it is, I think we can knock this field out just knock out our limits. Everybody shoot their 5 birds and we’ll get out of here quick shooting time around 07:00, 07:30 we were done. 3 volleys plus we shot 4 or 5 snow geese and Ross’s geese. I mean just “boom”, it was just unbelievable. But before we could shift gears and get out of there, another big slug of them started coming in. So we sat there for 20 minutes while 2500 big Canada geese swarmed that little 20 acres field. It was unbelievable. And then we were all hidden very well hidden in a blind and he sent his dog out, they just kind of got up and left like a coyote was chasing or something no big deal. And we freaking took a few pictures and got those decoys loaded up as quickly as we could and pulled out, it was like two 10 acre field, we went the length weight and got to the blacktop and he had to answer a text and before he finished that text on blacktop, it was 08:00. And we started shooting at 07:00 we shot our 4 respective limits of Canada Geese packed up, gotten out and there were already geese starting to hit that field again. But to sit there under about 2000, 2500 big Canada geese swarming was the most amazing thing. One of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen in Canada goose hunt. I’ve seen a lot of birds. Normally when you shoot big geese, it is small flocks 100, 150, 200, 300 nothing like what I saw and I did nothing like that. I know the one afternoon scouting we went to 5 or 6 different feeds. I know, I laid eyes on 30,000 Canada Geese, it was unbelievable. We’re talking an area of 15 square miles. I’ve never seen anything like it, it was incredible. What it is and it’s all those birds coming off the arctic and they stayed right there in that part. It’s right between the St. Lawrence and the Ottawa rivers and then there’s a tributary of the St. Lawrence, Rideau River, it runs right through that community and all the agriculture is centered around dairy production, so you’ve got corn and soybeans but then you’ve got corn. A lot of corn produced just for save salad or something, which is just a tremendous amount of goose rich and this is all the birds that are heading down to like Pennsylvania and Delmarva up in that area, Chesapeake bay up in that area is all their birds staging. It was fabulous. It was just incredible. And Ryan Reynolds came and he and I had a great conversation.

Rocky Leflore: Well, you had Forrest with you, what was going through Forrest mind?

Ramsey Russell: Smiling the whole time. You know it’s good when you take a young guy like that and he would sit out of volley to take pictures. He noticed that at no time in 3 days that he and I hardly ever shoot at the same time. Where they were 3 of us or 4 or 5 of us in the blind, at one point or the other, he might be shooting his volley I was filming or he was. When you’ve got that many birds, you can just enjoy it sit out of volley and take a few pictures or video knowing you’re going to – you got plenty of time to get your next 2 or 3 geese, it’s good, it’s unbelievable. And I really hadn’t been that excited. We’re already going back. We’ve already planned a trip for next year and we’re actually going to film this hunt next year for sure. And go back with Ryan and probably going to team up with my guest tonight on the podcast, Brandon Cerecke and his son and have a little father and son hunt right there. And make a nice little story about it.

Rocky Leflore: Speaking of Brandon and talking about a brand that is blowing up, the Boss Ammo good god.

“I feel like a gross underachiever in his presence. This guy wakes up at o6:30 in the morning and he is full steam ahead, hitting on all 8 cylinders. We stay up till 01:30 PM like we do talking, he ain’t around down one bit, he’s that guy.”

Ramsey Russell: It’s blown up, it blew up and it’s like a – I kind of sort of remember how I came into contact with Brandon and how we became friends quickly and it’s like, he’s right, there’s even before their launch this year I became aware of it. An outfitter is a mutual friend of mine and Brandon’s and he was asking me that was I aware of it last year and I was like, no, I never heard of it. You need to get your hands on some of this stuff. I said really? No, it is not bismuth, it’s this. Bismuth is not about that, it’s about this ammo. And so break a few weeks later on my little northern tier of 2018 tour, I go through somewhere around Ramsay Minnesota and stop and have lunch with Zack of wild deer and we go out to his truck to get something and he got those drawers that when the truck vaults in the bed of his truck and he pulled out the drawer and I see these beautiful red boxes. Hey, is that? Yeah, take a couple of boxes so he give me a couple and I was impressed. I’m like, wow 2 or 3 quarter inch shells. Wow, I’m impressed. And I had to tighten up the choke a little bit and I’m like wow, this is nice to be steel shot. No more 3.5 inch shells for double R. It was something as I talked to Brandon, as I talked to people about it and kind of leading up into the launch and everything else. I couldn’t put my finger on what it was about brand that just resonated with me and made me vibrate and I couldn’t articulate that until last week, really and truly last week. Passing through, I had to pick up this chard dog, she was about 30 minutes away from Brandon. Brandon said, Hey come spend the night, we went out and ate fish and recorded this little interview. And it was just something he said along the way that I just realized in that moment what it was that attracted me to the boss brand like a moth to a flame and it is. I’ve shot it neck to neck comparison against lead down in Mexico. I took some copper plated down to Argentina this year and honest apple to apple comparison to lead, smoked it. All the locals, all the bird boys at that Rio Salado talking about El Hefe the Boss. El Hefe. I was sitting there shooting one morning I had a bunch of lead in my bag, I brought a book of Boss took it out, strung up my belt real quick while he was out picking up birds or something and it just mix it in. I didn’t kind of dialed in for the morning, started shooting and I could hear Johnny felt a bit back behind me filming for Jake. I can hear Johnny making Ooze and Oz, I call them sex noises. And my guide would see the duck get hit and look at me and look back at the duck and he kept doing that and he kind of threw his hands up like what the heck? And I took out one of my belt and showed it to him, he can’t read English, can’t speak English. I said, El Hefe, the boss El Hefe. Oh “si si” El Hefe, Americano? I said “si” Americano loaded up and shot more ducks and it was stroking. It was like a wrecking ball hitting them ducks compared to lead all things equal. It was like a wrecking ball hitting that bird. And I went back to camp a little bit later as I’m walking around, doing things, all the staffs just talking about El Hefe. It was all around, a few weeks later, about a month later Lee Kjos was down there and we went back to back and I was meeting with the bird boys on some different stuff. But I didn’t know to tell you how many thousands of cartons shell boxes they throw away in the course of a year, no telling but I noticed Lydia too right above the sink they had saved that box of boss, souvenir or whatever and that made me think. So the ammo is superior, it’s what Brandon Cerecke and his staff is what they are bringing to the market besides in my opinion the highest quality control, the best ammo at the best price. It’s the narrative, it’s the message that I realized resonates with me and at a lot of different levels Rocky. And if you keep up with me a little bit, if I were to read some of the hunts we do around the world Argentina or wherever. You kind of see that to me, a duck hunt is a duck hunt is the place, the geography where you are, that gives a lot of context. And I really think having spent some time with Brandon who I value as a friend in the truest sense. Tremendous amount of respect I have for him. He’s one of the most sincere people I’ve ever met but he’s also one of the smartest and hardest working I have ever met. I feel like a gross underachiever in his presence. This guy wakes up at o6:30 in the morning and he is full steam ahead, hitting on all 8 cylinders. We stay up till 01:30 PM like we do talking, he ain’t around down one bit, he’s that guy. But to give you a little context, I learned a little something up there about Michigan this year. It means something to me but when they were way back when disputing boundaries of all these states in that part of the world. It became a little battleground, I can’t remember what they call that war became a battleground over Ohio and between Ohio and what became Michigan. And it had to do with transportation, river access, commerce, all that good stuff and politics being with the world how won out. I think it was Toledo, Ohio they were fighting over, Toledo war, they called it, no shots fired but just pretty dang ugly. And in exchange for that area, they ceded to the state of Michigan, “the workplace” Upper Peninsula UP which everybody just thought it was just a wasteland until they found huge iron deposits and some of the best pure copper deposits maybe in the world, super valuable. Now, in addition to all this mineral wealth, Iron, copper we also got the great lakes, shipping, moving all that stuff for. Here comes a man named Henry Ford, here comes General Motors, whole industries, big industries built up around in that part of the world. Rocky, middle class I was born in the stage of World War II. All those soldiers came home, they got jobs and it’s a big burden. The good old days, happy days of America were when you went from 2 classes to 3 and that middle class became huge. It had a lot to do with states like Michigan and working opportunities in assembly lines and an auto worker for unions the whole 9 yards. I read one time that the largest employer of Americans at one time back in those days was General Motors. And in today’s dollars about 20-25 bucks an hour they made. Largest employer today Walmart and they hold it around whatever 8 bucks an hour, that’s a big difference on a total American economy now. So, just bear with me on this. A lot of industry moved in, a lot of organized labor, a lot of that kind of think tank and what I see in a business like boss relates back to that and when I hear Brandon talk about his employees, not these little millions of people, but his family’s, a real fidelity. When I hear him talk about employees that have been working for his 3^rd generation owned business 30 years when they retire forever. It’s just a different way of thinking. He doesn’t boss them, he leads them. That’s what I see, he leads them. The time I’m at boss, I just can’t imagine one of the “big boys” in whatever, emulating this. And he puts his finger on every single – all day long, he touches every aspect of that product to copper plating to this, to that, the manufacturer, the formation of the shot itself. I mean, he’s like a blur. He’s going from here to here out there doing it. And it’s just utter quality control. And you all pay attention during his conversation because we started off trying to talk about kind of how the business came about, how the idea came about, where he started with it. Man, he really takes a turn. I’m sorry about midway through that conversation, it becomes personal, real personal, personal commitment to people that buy his product. Number one day that they sell ammo is Thursdays. He knows and he mentions the significance of Thursday’s to him, the man that writes pay checks and because of that it motivates him to deliver absolute best to that person that believed in him. And their whole thing Rocky that has been missing it, just bear with me. A lot of us people listening are old enough to remember the lead days. We all shot lead. You know back in the lead days, I was pretty young man, I shot a 20 gauge. My grandfather gave me his 12 gauge 1100. He was done duck hunt. I gave that 20 gauge to a cousin. Got it back since but there were chambers for 2 and 3 quarter inch shells. Kind of how I hunted some, how we hunted I shot 2 and 3 quarter inch 7.5 and 6’s, that’s what I shot. We were factory modified the whole barrel was modified not to choke the whole barrel, there’s plenty. I thought I dare to shot at a duck, it was plenty. Then along came steel all the warnings of this new-fangled stuff said don’t shoot it in those gun that’ll make them boiled, it’ll tear them up, we saw a lot of that stuff 30 years ago floating around and hear about it. And steel shot today is not steel shot yesterday year, I mean it’s a lot better than it was still steel shot. Take it from somebody travel around the world and gets to shoot lead that heavier shot is better in that. It’s way better than steel shot, it just is and it always will be. I don’t care but to compensate for lighter steel which is 36% density of lead no energy equals function of speed and mass. Well, you lost 2/3 of your mass, let’s increase the speed and everybody shooting 3 inch. Oh God, that ended up with let’s do 3.5 inch. Rocky, I’m really serious, I’m surprised we ain’t got no ammo the size of flares to stick off of these guns now and it took over all these different perversions, speed with 3.5 inches that flying whatever, what is it? 1500, 1600, 1700ft per second. Kicks like a mule, tears up guns, Knox fillings out, pair cornea loose, its nuts but it’s not just that, it’s how somehow in marketing that as better than what was before that it’s just taken a life of its own to where shoot a bird off the Sputnik. I mean, it’s like you’re kind of inducing the average guy to think he can overcompensate or lack of skill with technology faster, bigger, a different shape, bigger size, just add another. Along comes this little ammo company with a kind of passion and quality and commitment, Brandon has and then Lee has and their small staff have that says no 2 and 3 quarter inches, 1350ft/s, 1450ft/s. I took those 2 and 3 quarter inch little 5 shorties, they called them down to Argentina, I stroked it son, El Hefe. Now, I took some up to Canada 4’s and 5’s. When’s the last time you even conceived of going snow goose hunting for 2 and 3 quarter inch 5 or 4? Not since many people’s lifetimes. We’ve been told, oh heck no, you need a 3 inch or 3.5 inch, you got to shoot 17, 15 you got to risk tearing the cornea loose to kill a snow goose, no. What I realized is in becoming friends with Brandon, their message and what they’re bringing to the market is not just a superior shell and make no mistake about it, it is superior. If you see the love that the person go into each load, you realize that everything, the powder, that the watch, the primer, brass, the plastic, everything, the best they can do it. Oh, it’s the middle man. Do you want a copper plate that cost more? We’ll eat that. We’ll just make a better shell for the public. When’s the last time you saw business do something like that? You know what I am saying, Rocky? But beyond the best shell, what the message they’re sending to the hunter’s is skill, play a better game, shoot responsibly, know your distance. And you get a little bit of distance out of this stuff here, right here if you choke it right 40 yards in a heartbeat, if you got it. Clean kills, know your shot clean kills because you’ve got a product that will do it. Pattern density, pattern your gun, so you know your shot, that’s their message Rocky, pattern it, know your shot, shoot responsibly, clean kills. Ultimately respect for hunting traditions for the resource. That I realized what sucked me into the brand. Its best shell great. That’s just a by-product. Great, I get to shoot the best shell. The money difference is inconsequential. Trust me, you can’t take your family out to eat dinner at chick-fil-A for what the difference is apples to apples. And somebody asked me that last night in social media, you sure you are not paid by them? Heck no, you all know me. I don’t except that stuff, I don’t play that game. I’m passionate about it because I used and I believe in it. I’m passionate about it, I’m passionate about them and I’m very passionate about the message they are sending out the hunting community.

Rocky Leflore: Well, Ramsey we need to get to that interview with Brandon now, thank you again for joining me before you go out of town. I appreciate it and I appreciate you doing this interview with Brandon while you were with him.

Ramsey Russell: You too. We’re going to get back on the horn, me and Brandon are, you watch.

Rocky Leflore: All right brother. Well, let’s get to that interview with him now.

Ramsey Russell: This is Ramsey Russell getducks.com, where its ducks season somewhere. I’m driving back to Mississippi after an incredible month up in the Northern Tier and I’m sitting on the back patio with my friend Brandon Cerecke of Boss shot shells. Have you all heard of this ammo yet? Because if you hadn’t, you need to. Old school from the day as long, the good old days are now. Brandon, how are you today?

Brandon Cerecke: We’re hanging in.

Ramsey Russell: Are you as busy in person as you seen online?

Brandon Cerecke: I would agree with that. That’s fair.

Ramsey Russell: It seems really to have blown up. Maybe the last month since I saw you last.

“I can’t lie, my wife says when you going to stop working this is aggravating I never get time you and the family this and that. So, I just take the kids to work with me on the weekends and we still get our family time in but it’s a blast.”

Brandon Cerecke: Anybody I think knows me, knows that I love working and it’s been fun. I can’t lie, my wife says when you going to stop working this is aggravating I never get time you and the family this and that. So, I just take the kids to work with me on the weekends and we still get our family time in but it’s a blast. I got to tell you, I can’t believe how quickly it’s taken off and all the good stuff we’re doing. It’s been really fun.

Ramsey Russell: Well, because busy is good. I’m a business owner. It’s like when I’m not busy is when it’s not fun.

“I fall asleep at night. My eyes get tired, I’m on my phone researching or reading, as not watching TV or news or anything like that. I’m taking deep dives in this stuff, whether it’s shotgun shells or ballistics or aerodynamics or whatever it is.”

Brandon Cerecke: Right. Well, I’m always working whether or not I’m doing boss or whatever, I’m always working never shut it off. I fall asleep at night. My eyes get tired, I’m on my phone researching or reading, as not watching TV or news or anything like that. I’m taking deep dives in this stuff, whether it’s shotgun shells or ballistics or aerodynamics or whatever it is. I kind of get geeky from time to time.

Ramsey Russell: But what gathered me is you’re not just a shot shell manufacturers, you’ve got a lot of depth to you. I mean, how long have you been making shot shells and how did it start?

“Started when I was in 7th grade and well, actually it goes further back my first memory as a kid was – I was in the playroom of the house I was came up, when I was a baby and my dad had a workbench with a reloading press in this old bar stool on it in the maintenance room and my play room was right next to it.”

Brandon Cerecke: Started when I was in 7^th grade and well, actually it goes further back my first memory as a kid was – I was in the playroom of the house I was came up, when I was a baby and my dad had a workbench with a reloading press in this old bar stool on it in the maintenance room and my play room was right next to it. So, it was snowing out and he was down there playing with this machine and I was playing with my toys, I could have been 4 or 5 years old. But it was on that same press that I learn to load shells on when I was in 6^th grade and then I started doing all my own hand loads for me and my son and did all the prototype loads with boss on that loader and tables still at the shop today and I sit on that that bar stool every single day whether I’m cutting on forcing cones or putting shells together or thinking about what I got to get done when I’m on that on that chair.

Ramsey Russell: I remember, how I heard about ball shot shells, was last year I was hunting with Mat Schauer. I don’t know how it came up, but he started talking about a client of his that had this wicked new load that he said, man, when you get your hands on it you need to shoot it. I’m like what is it? He said boss or something. I said, well what is it? He goes, oh, it hits duck, it’s good and he was explaining that the first time he’s seen you it was like literally just your hand loads. Like literally you’ve been sitting at that bench and turning hand loads and then how did it go from that to this? I mean, what happened that you were loading shells and all of a sudden now you’re loading machinery in this factory you’ve got here loading shells for everybody. And then now it’s the hottest brand in the outdoor industry. How did that happen?

Brandon Cerecke: Well, I told you I’m a workaholic and I’ve had other businesses that I started and ran, alongside parallel with my main family owned business, 3^rd generation that I own now. And I got involved in a project started it up, ran it for a year, big time metal finishing operation, sold it off and I told my wife I was going to take a year off and only work one full time job. So, we got about that would’ve been April that about 3 weeks later we’re getting ready to go snow goose hunting with Matt in Northern Skies and she told me that I need to come up with something to do. This is the 2^nd time around went up with Matt for 2 snow goose seasons down in Jonesborough or Kash. So I load up shells and look, I guess let me backtrack. The first time we went up, I was taking my son who was just turned 7 and I wanted him shooting something that he could actually kill birds with in a 410 for his skill level, he wasn’t going to do it. So I wanted to make some nice easy shooting 20 gauge loads. So I’ve got some tungsten and jumped on the press and knocked out some stuff for him and I thought while I’ll shoot some stuff, blow some stuff up for me. So we got down there Jonesborough and I’m left handed. So I’m always on the right hand of the line and the guides were noticing that there was all kinds of shit falling in their eyes and birds are falling on our end of the line. And they said, what in the hell are you guys shooting down there? So I tossed his hand loaded shells down and they said, hell no, I’m not shooting that’s some hand loads. I’m not, that’s not my thing. I said that’s fine. So, the 3^rd day after we were getting ready to go home, one of the guide said, I’ll tell you what, if you got any of them shells left over, I’ll shoot them. I said, yeah, here you go have them, whatever I left and maybe had 50 of them. Fast forward a year sold the business, I was only working one full time job and we go back and the guides then said, did you bring any more of the ammo with you? So, I started thinking I’m like, why do you want to want to shoot it now? They said, man, we sent the rest of that stuff out after you left and we cannot believe how good it is. I thought, all right, that’s cool, so my wife is on me now because we’re a couple of weeks in after me selling that business and like I told you if I’m not working, I can be kind of a pain in the ass to live with. So, she said Brandon you need to find something to do because you’re driving me nuts. So, it’s a combination of her telling me I needed something else to do. And these guides down working for Matt that told me what we had was really good. So the 1^st year I was shooting a tungsten shell, the 2^nd year I was shooting a bismuth shell and I was starting to think that maybe I could have a small little business that would supplement what we’re doing in metal finishing and be able to go on some hunting trips and have a good time and spent time with my hobby business.

Ramsey Russell: A hobby, just a small little business. Make a little money to pay for hunting trip.

Brandon Cerecke: Cover the fuel in my airplane to fly around and pay the guides and cover all the lodging and all that because around here it’s not necessarily really good hunting until you get to the late season. So I ended up talking to Matt and I said Matt, we got this the shell that your guides really love, I’m thinking of starting a small business, what do you think, would you help me get this thing going? And he said, I’ll tell you what? My guys are heading to Saskatchewan in a week and a half, I’m already here. You got to get shells to me and we can put them through their paces and tell you if it’s good or not. So you got to talk to Cory Loffler and he’s coming up. You know Corey?

Ramsey Russell: Yeah. Did you know Corey at the time?

Brandon Cerecke: Did know him from Adam. Okay, so I met this guy named Corey, Minnesota boy funnier than hell. I mean just –

Ramsey Russell: Everybody’s business meant for Loffler on this podcast they know Corey now, trust me.

Brandon Cerecke: Corey’s like, we’ll send us up this and this and this, I’m thinking, my God, I can’t make this many cases off with a single stage max 600, that’s 47 years old and every time I got to pull the handle 5 times to get a shell out but I did. So, we got this stuff out and Corey ended up calling me on the way back because now, Corey and I got to be buddies and he said this is some pretty wicked stuff and it was 4’s and 6’s what I sent up for them to shoot snows in,

4’s and 6’s. 2 and 3 quarter inch ounce and a quarter payload, yep, clear holes. Maybe I think they were clear, you could see through them. And that’s the other thing that freaked those guys out, clear holes are like, I’m not looking at that and that’s funny looking shit. I don’t want to shoot that. Anyway, Corey’s like –

Ramsey Russell: 4’s and 6’s for snow goose hunt.

Brandon Cerecke: Yeah.

Ramsey Russell: Okay, go ahead.

Brandon Cerecke: So Corey says, because he knew by now I was kind of thinking of making a hobby out of this. He said by this time I already knew Corey, I found out about his business, I had ordered some calls from, had a couple of t-shirts sweatshirts and I got this catalogue. It’s a really nice book that he puts together he sends out with his orders. So he ends up telling me, he goes, you know this business that you want to do, he’s like, you really might be onto something and I think you should talk to one of my buddies that I know his name is Lee Kjos and I said, okay, what does Lee do? He’s like, well, he’s a marketing guy and I said, does he do your marketing like that catalogue you have is pretty freaking killer man and its good stuff. And he kind of chuckled and he laughed, he said, he’s like no, I wish Lee could do my stuff, but what he does is way beyond what we can do. As I called this guy, so Corey sent me his phone number and down the path I went trying to get a hold of Lee Kjos, so after probably 2 weeks of back and forth trying to connect with this guy, I end up getting a call back and I’m mowing my lawn right over like 100 yards that way. Mowing my lawn in the zone, making nice straight lines, sucking up every blade of grass shit is looking good. My phone rings and I shut the mower off and I proceeded to talk to Lee for about 45 minutes straight and I kind of told him what I wanted to do and he told me that well, 4’s and 6’s are cool on snow’s because I shoot number 7 tungsten at everything. I don’t care if it’s a diver, if it’s a mallard, it’s a goose that’s what I shoot number 7s. And you know Lee too I mean he’s not going to bullshit you and he’ll put the fear of God into you and say if I’m going to do anything, it better be good. So I knew, I had to have the product and based on what I heard from Matt’s guides, Corey and what I had seen it do personally, I thought we might have it. So Lee says send me some stuff and I’ll let you know. So I thought my God man, if I got a hang with number 7 tungsten, I got to have something good. So, I loaded him up some number 5’s thinking that textbook math would put us right on the same page as the number 7 tungsten and I sent them to him. And Lee is not going to blow sunshine up anyone’s ass, I don’t think unless it’s well deserved.

Ramsey Russell: No, everybody knows that.

Brandon Cerecke: And even then it wasn’t complimentary at all. But he said, I think we got something here. So, I knew I checked that box and I at least had Lee behind this and he knew that what we had was something that nobody else had. So that’s how the number 5 got to be as popular as it is. Lee scared me into making sure that I had good product that could be on an equal playing field what he’s used to shooting and we did that just so happened to be a number 5 shots. So the boss 5 is what it is because –

Ramsey Russell: You know a crazy thing I collect. I tell people all the time I don’t collect ducks, I collect experiences. But I do collect stuff, I pick stuff up like I’ve got this thing for homemade silhouette decoys in a gun and decoy but silhouettes. Don’t ask me how that got started, but when I see one I pick it up. Another thing I’ve got a collection of are ammo boxes, but not just any ammo box, you all pick up the ammo box from this country, that country with this kind of – but the big thing is the number 5 because of my humble opinion a number 5 imperial sized lead pellet is the duck killing thing ever made. And down in Australia they shoot – my buddy Glenn Falla he used to work with Winchester and developing steel loads and invented a 2 and 3 quarter inch number 5 steel load. It’s not available in America in terms of steel shot, that’s a pretty darn good, you got to choke type but its pretty darn. I mean it’s one of the best duck loads I’ve ever shot.

Brandon Cerecke: And my thing too is like one of them was, I had to make sure Lee was happy with what we’re making and I like being different. Odd numbers are cool, prime numbers are cool. But 1’s, 3’s, 5’s, 7’s that’s cool. Like all your steel shot, you’re going to get a BB 24, maybe a steel 6 if you’re shooting ducks in clothes, but that also even number of stuff. So I knew in order for us to – I don’t know shit about marketing or didn’t know I know a little more now getting to hang with Lee for a year. But I knew that we had to be different and honest to God, I mean the reason why we put these things ouncing a quarter shell is because you didn’t need a 3 inch shell because the metal’s a little denser but ouncing a quarter is a nominal duck hunting or goose hunting payload. And so what we put in 2 and 3 quarter inch shell that didn’t mean shit to me, that’s fine. But that whole thing, the number 5 the short shell took on a life of its own. And it really got the conversation rolling. I knew in order to be different, we had to come up with something cool and everything we do, whether it’s from the package we put it in, the way we sell it when we talk to the customers, it’s just got to be different. I mean, I’m a different dude, you know me.

Ramsey Russell: Oh, yeah. You’re driven. I can remember in the early 90s and I’m guessing here, but I’m going to say fall of ‘89. And I may be offered a little bit, but I’m going to say and now I take it back in the fall of 1990 I think, I went to go buy Shotgun shells. I was working on a ranch in Texas, 30 miles behind a locked gate and they were steel shot. I’m like, what is this? The store shop owner was like, well it’s optional this year, but it’s going to be where you can’t shoot ducks with lead anymore. I loaded down on lead that year, the next year 91 it was mandated steel shot and it was just – I don’t know how many ducks were ingesting lead and dying later. But I know a lot of ducks flew off into the horizon hit.

Brandon Cerecke: Carrying Steel.

Ramsey Russell: With the steel shot I was shooting. And so now for 30 years my son Forrest is 22 years old, all my kids have been shooting steel shots, the only thing they’ve ever had a choice of – I’ve been shooting now for 30 years and then they came along with this tungsten I’m getting around to a question here that came along with this tungsten which was heavier than lead, it was nontoxic. Why did you choose to go with the bismuth tin alloy instead of with – I know you’re looking for something better than steel but why did you choose bismuth tin alloy instead of tungsten?

Brandon Cerecke: We knew that it worked and having loaded tungsten one year bismuth the next and not seeing too much noticeable difference led me to believe that we’re really onto something. Secondly manufacturing, bismuth and tin are low melt alloys and it’s something I could rather easily develop inside the plant and not have to have huge investments up initially like the prototyping phase.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah, I didn’t think about that.

Brandon Cerecke: Like I was able to run shot for a couple 100 bucks and actually make a go of alloying bismuth and tin together and make like 6’s, 5’s that kind of thing.

Ramsey Russell: I can remember back in the good old days when they first came out with steel, a lot of papaw guns were getting damaged, shooting this new-fangled steel shop because trying to go through those old conventional choked barrels like, kids today that didn’t lap lead versus steel they don’t remember the days when you bought a shotgun, you bought the one that had the choke you wanted to shoot modified, full, improve I mean you didn’t have a bunch of screw in choke to put in there that. That’s a function of having this steel shot stuff come along with, even a modified choke today is more open constriction than papaw guns had. Those were a whole different type guns. They had to do it to balance the energy equation shooting this steel shot am I right? Now we got to – because the energy equals mass plus velocity and well, we got 36% the mass of lead, so we got to really crank up the speeds.

Brandon Cerecke: Right, but drag increases at the square speed. So in order to get steel to carry the same energy as lead, you have to move it like – lead move at 1250, you got to move steel like I’m going to say, unless I work out the math it’s got to be 2000ft/s or north of it, same size pellet.

Ramsey Russell: Or nobody put out the 2000ft/s.

Brandon Cerecke: No, it doesn’t make sense to do. So that going back to it like, so we knew bismuth was close on the periodic table to lead. It was almost as dense, it was the barriers for me to enter that or at least develop it in house with what I had at my disposal was a short putt, I mean we could do it. So we end up quickly finding out there are severe limitations trying to make a shot for a couple 100 bucks. I mean, but we bridge that gap. So, again my first memories going hunting with my dad were, I was again 5 years old maybe 6. And we went up to the GMU and he was shooting geese and to see the group of guys that were him and 2 other guys that were hunting with him. And to see how those birds folded in the air and just like dead. It left an impression on me that when I picked up hunting years later on my own steel come out, birds didn’t die like they did back then, they just didn’t. So, I was always chasing this like man, things were so much better way back when back in the day like when my dad took me out in the early 80s this is what we did. And I guess it kind of dates myself, I’m only 37, but I know now and we’re at trade shows if I see a guy and he don’t have grey hair, he don’t know what lead was like, that’s the thing. You’ve got to be almost 50 years old to have experienced pulling the trigger shooting lead shot. And it doesn’t seem like it’s been that long, but I mean it has been 30 years.

Ramsey Russell: Prior to them steel I shot 2 and 3 quarter inch whatever my granddaddy brought Remington Mohawk federal whatever, but it was 2 or 3 quarter inch 20 gauge 6’s or 7.5’s. What the fact with the factory modified it came just the barrel was built, it was a modified barrel not a choke modified barrel. And so what I’ve noticed is – break, I kind of got into the equation with boss as I had stopped last year when coming through Minnesota, I stopped by to see Zach Meyer. And I can’t remember what we walked out to his truck to get but he’s got like one of those beds with the pull out doors –

Brandon Cerecke: Deck

Ramsey Russell: Yeah, deck and he pulled it out, I’m like right there and I see these boxes that say Boss I go, is that the ammo Mat Schaefer told me about? He goes yeah, and he started giving me a couple of boxes. So I’m like, well I’m going to shoot these when I get home and duck season came around and I was shooting the choke. I would shoot steel shot with, which is a little more open than you’d want to shoot lead or bismuth with but I adjusted and I was pretty darn impressed. In fact I saved some and I went down to Mexico last year where we still shoot lead those Aguila shells. They’re good shells, they shoot 6’s, they shoot 4’s but they don’t have 5’s. And I had these bismuth 5’s and I just reached in my bag and pulled him out and dumped them in my pocket and I was in the blind with two writers. And they started making notes. I mean, I don’t know what they heard or saw other than the ducks getting clobbered, but they started commenting about it and I gave them each one shell because it was box of 20, I didn’t have like endless amount to spare. And that was my first hint that all things equal, I’m shooting 2 and 3 quarter inch shells are knocking my fillings loose. 3.5, who shot 3.5 there wasn’t such a thing until steel shot come along. I did not know anybody that grown man I hunted with, they didn’t shoot 3 inch lead shot, they shot 2 and 3 quarter inch at everything. And so that was kind of how it flew up on my radar was like wait a minute for 30 years, I’ve had to shoot steel. I sell duck hunts for a living, I don’t have $4 to trigger pull to shoot tungsten with birds, but all of a sudden I don’t have to. I’ve got a new option available and its 2 and 3 quarter inch so I don’t have to hurt myself.

Brandon Cerecke: When I really got ate up with waterfowl hunting, I was just out of college 22 years old, married. I didn’t have a mortgage yet. I was paying rent and I remember burning pay checks, like we were living pay check to pay check. You know how it is when you first get married. I mean you’re one pay check away from financial disaster and I would get paid on Mondays, everyone else got paid on Thursdays as my parents own the business so I was able to get paid the day they got payroll. And if I didn’t go to Gander Mountain or Cabela’s I was on herders was still around back then I was burning pay checks. And I knew how addictive this sport can be and how sometimes at the end of the month there’s not enough money left over. So, on the flip side of that I’m kind of soft when it comes to crippled wounded animals and that whole thing and I don’t like seeing anything suffer. So I knew that what we had cleaned or killed way cleaner, way fewer cripples and it brought me back to those days when I was 5 years old in the cornfield with my dad shooting geese. And I knew that if we could sell this thing direct nothing against independent retailers but I got major issues with big box guys. I mean everyone who knows me knows that, but we had to figure out a way to get these shells in the hands of working guys. Guys that have to work for a living and they deserved quality ammunition. So, the direct model was it and Lee was in full agreement with what we wanted to do and here’s what we got, you got lead like performance and you’re not paying that much more.

Ramsey Russell: We were talking over dinner tonight Boss Ammo is within 15 or 20 cents of – I want to say some of the craft steel shot at the base within 24 you’re looking at $4 a case, 4 bucks, regular folks like me can afford a $4 difference for a better shell. Everybody can.

Brandon Cerecke: Yeah, like I said, I’m 22 years old married, paying rent, car payment all that stuff. I mean you’re going to the store buying – I’m not going to say the cheapest shit you can buy, but you know something. I mean that’s –

Ramsey Russell: Got to do what you got to do though.

Brandon Cerecke: Yeah. If you want to hunt, like I said, there’s not enough money at the end of the month, the last thing people buy are the shells. And I can tell you, I thought patterning a 3.5 inch super mag, shooting a piece of cardboard looking at and saying, okay that looks all right, I didn’t know shit about that back when I was a kid, nothing. So, I knew what we had to do when it was an uphill climb and sometimes you got to be loud, you got to be different to get that attention. But right now, I mean it’s doing it.

Ramsey Russell: That brings up a couple of good points is, I noticed looking at you all’s Instagram feed, your social media feed, patterning is a huge thing and it’s been 30 years since I shot anything at paper and that was when steel shot came out, we all knew we couldn’t shoot granddad’s gun. We had these new screw in chokes, we knew we had to open up and we knew we’d better go out because brands and brands different loads and loads are different, shots sizes different. We need to go out and at least shoot something, we’d have an idea of what worked good for us. And so 30 years ago, I can remember going out and shooting a cardboard box or something like that. But you all have brought back all of a sudden – it’s like Lee says all the time, the whole conversation, if you’re an archer, you’re walking to the back porch and going to your deer stand shooting every single day slinging arrow after arrow. If you’re a big game hunter, you’re zero in your guns, you know what your range is and those animals deserve that. I mean, we kind of need to know what our guns are patterning and you all have brought that whole concept of responsible hunting back.

Brandon Cerecke: Well and I think maybe 1 or 2 things, maybe it’s lead work that well or steel doesn’t work that good. Whenever you’re hunting I mean, the advantages are always in your favor, whether you’re deer hunting or elk hunting or whatever. I mean the animal that you’re hunting does not know that it’s being hunted, you’ve got the upper hand. And I think steel was detrimental to both the hunter and the game because it maybe equalize things. Maybe that bird’s going to die when you pull the trigger maybe it won’t, maybe it’s going to get hit, maybe it’ll carry shot out and die later on.

Ramsey Russell: Hunting is an imperfect sport. It’s a game of errors a lot like baseball. I mean we’re shooting a pattern of lethal stuff, but maybe you’re a little ahead, a little behind a little high, little low, maybe straight pellet hits him, maybe hit him in the head and maybe hit him in the tail feathers. And big game hunting, bow hunting is really not too much different.

Brandon Cerecke: And the whole thing with us really getting behind patterning your gun. I mean that’s me being maybe a little geeky as my wife would say. But to me, I told you when you pattern your gun at our shop a couple weeks back. If you can shoot that piece of cardboard and visualize what your pattern looks like at various yardages one way or another, you’re going to remember that whether it’s subconsciously or whatever, when you’re in the field and you’re going to take that shot on the duck, you know what’s going to happen when you pull that trigger, whether it’s at 30 or 40 yards or 20 yards, you’re going to be able to create that visual picture. So when you send that shell downrange, you know what you’re doing and bring awareness to that patterning and what does density look like and this and that all this higher level conversation that no one’s ever talked about before is getting people out there. First off, it’s engaging them in a passion that we all share year round. It’s bringing awareness to cripples and clean kills the difference between those two and it’s just elevating everyone’s game that, I think if you take the sum of all the parts that we put together, it’s raising the bar whether it’s ammunition or hunting success or hunter proficiency. It’s more than just getting out there and pulling the trigger.

Ramsey Russell: That’s right. Yeah, I agree entirely with that. you know coming here whatever it was a month or so ago and it’s been a month but we were talking game fair and you were asking about my patterns and asking and I said very honestly, I just really shooting ducks and if I’m crippling a few too many or to winging off a little funny. I know I need to tighten up, I really just was kind of sort of patterning in the air and after looking at all those pattern boards, you had for all the different shots size and all the different yardages, it just made me cognizant that, I needed to step up my game. I needed to be a little bit more of a conscientious hunter. And so when I came here and we started patterning, it was very eye opening for me and we chose 40 yards because I will shoot 40 yards on a slipping bird and we put in all those chokes and it was very eye opening to see exactly what I had been shooting and so now I’m that guy. I want to know what I’m shooting. You know what I’m saying? I don’t really think about when the birds are flying but I know if the birds are hitting 30 yards inside the decoy and you’re coming in with that 30 yard mark, I know which choke I’m going for. And I know in those days that they’re not going to give me that all the time, I know which choke I’m going for.

Brandon Cerecke: Well, and the thing is it’s bringing awareness to it and like I said it’s upping everyone’s game and like you and Jake and Lee talked about it. Was it last week on show?

Ramsey Russell: That was Rocky, I was just thinking to bring that about the up.

Brandon Cerecke: Why? Is it because you can shoot 4 mallards that doesn’t matter if you cripple 3 of them. People will make themselves sick if they gut shoot or wound an elk. I mean that thing will hunt them for the rest of their life, but they shoot a duck and it drops its leg and flies off and dies. Oh well, just shoot me another one. That’s bullshit.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah, I agree. I hate to say it but I agree and I have seen enough hunting shows where – I tell you what looks good on film for making a TV show is when the head stops the body don’t and that bird hits the water and stone cold dead.

Brandon Cerecke: And the flip side of that is, the worst thing you can feel is and I’ve done it where you hit that bird going out of the decoys, it drops its left leg and you know it’s not going to live but you know you’re not going to get it.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah. And I watched the conversations evolving on you all’s Instagram page which has just got a tremendous amount of engagement. In fact Brandon, we talked about this months ago now part of what lured me as a hunter and as a person to the boss narrative was you all social media. It’s the brand itself, no half measures that Brandon Cerecke himself, Cerecke was speaking answering those questions to people anybody had a question. The level of engagement the questions that bring awareness, it just resonated with everything I feel like I am as a duck hunter. That’s what brought me in the photo said wait a minute. You know all of a sudden these guys are shooting 2 and 3 quarter inch shells, there’s no height gimmicky marketing, there’s no funny shaped pellets, there’s no funny shaped angle. And here are guys that are preaching all of a sudden to know your load, know your hunting style, shoot an ammo that’s going to kill birds. Instead of what I have seen emerge in the marketing business for shooting ammo which is – we’ve got the finger of God inside this shell, you too can shoot a bird at 250 yards. Just pull the trigger. Am I right? I mean, it’s like you’re taking regular guys and saying, look this is the hottest thing, you can kill a bird from here to outer space just pull the trigger.

Brandon Cerecke: I think it has gotten out of hand and Lee and I both work other jobs. We don’t need to sell these shotgun shells for us to feed our families. And that’s a luxury that we both enjoy for the hard work we’ve put in for our entire lives.

Ramsey Russell: There you go.

Brandon Cerecke: What we do have is a great product. But even better than that, we’ve got a story and we want to tell it and we want to share that information with anybody who wants to listen. So someone asked a question, Lee and I are two different we’re a generation apart. We see the world from different eyes but we all see the same questions and conversations. So we can have that dialogue and it not be a sales pitch or a marketing gimmick. You want to hear the truth? Our opinion here it is. You don’t like it? That’s fine. You can’t make everyone happy. We’re not going to try to pander or create a bullshit story just to try to sell some product that’s not who we are – at least me never has been, never will be. We are way too grounded to pull some ship like that.

Ramsey Russell: I agree. What next for Boss Shot shells? I mean, I know from meeting with you the first month and now I’m meeting with you at the end of the month, I know that just in 30 days the demand and the love of what you all are doing has just – you’ve got to be proud when you goes. When your head hits the pillow at night come on Brandon you’ve got to say, wow.

Brandon Cerecke: I’ve been telling people that I’ve been fortunate enough to never feel like I’ve ever had to really work. I mean certain things are tough but –

Ramsey Russell: But love what you are doing, then it ain’t work.

Brandon Cerecke: Absolutely. And like I said, I’ve had some success in business over the course of my years, working and I have jokingly say I’m at a point in my life where if I don’t enjoy what I’m doing, I’m not going to do it and if anything ever truly becomes a job for me. I really need to evaluate some of the choices I’m making in my life. So my wife, she’s heard enough of boss and that’s a 4 letter word to her, but I’m sure Lee’s wife Bonnie would agree. But it’s so much fun, it’s absolutely a pleasure to be able to wake up in the morning, get to go to work and –

Ramsey Russell: Can’t wait to go to work.

Brandon Cerecke: Oh, I mean I’ve always felt that way about everything I’ve ever done. When I’m not at my home around my family, but even then this last year has been so great to know that like we’re actually making a difference not in the industry but like – it maybe a little arrogant to say, but I think that we’re on the start of something that could actually change the tone and the conversation in the way people talk about conservation.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah, I agree. It needs to be changed. It’s a discussion and it’s a thought process in my humble opinion that needs some correction.

Brandon Cerecke: Well, again like I said earlier, there’s no bullshit. Like we feel very passionately about what we talk about, what we make. Everything that embodies boss is the honest to God’s truth from the people you hear it from. And we care about migratory animals and like the migration of the snow goose, who people want to discredit and give all kinds of derogatory names to one of the most fascinating animals I think I’ve ever read, studied, hunted and seen.

Ramsey Russell: One of my favorite geese in the world.

Brandon Cerecke: I mean, from the constant hunting pressure to the thousands of miles they migrate to just everything that they do.

Ramsey Russell: And yet they survive like fire ants.

Brandon Cerecke: Yeah. And in an environment that is bleak as a damn dirt field and they can still exist. People need to talk about that more. Understand it’s not about posting an image of 20 of these things next to the guy piled up look at what I killed, that’s not what it’s about. That maybe the end result of is harvesting that game but by enlargement, I mean, its bigger purpose. If we can be one little cog in that wheel of having higher level discussions, I think the entire community benefits

Ramsey Russell: This is Ramsey Russell. You can follow me on @RamseyRussellgetducks. You all tune in and check out Boss Shot Shells too.

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